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Topic: Past Subjunctive case

Bill Allen - 7/17/2006 9:50:24 AM
Too often in my writing I find myself rewriting a paragraph to remove a sentence that I can't figure out how to write correctly. Most often this involves two male characters and an abundance of "he"s, or a male and female character both doing something without a gender-neutral pronoun. But another biggie is the past subjunctive case, in particular using "was" or "were" with "if." Many people errantly believe that one or the other is always used, much the same as they might use "John and I" after a preposition instead of John and "me." (By the way, I've never been a big fan of the period inside the quotes either, especially in cases where you are using quotes to tell something exactly like it is supposed to be. (ex. Your password is "rosebud." better be "Your password is "rosebud". or you're not getting in.)

Here's what I have discovered about the subjunctive case oddity so far:

In cases where the phrase in question can't be true, always use "were" (ex. If I WERE ten years younger I would play football this weekend.)

In cases where you are assuming the phrase in question isn't true, also use "were" (ex. If I WERE to go out this weekend, I certainly wouldn't go with you!)

Now here's the tricky one. According to some sources, you never use "were" in conjunction with "wonder" or "ask," as in the following examples from bartleby.com:

- We wondered if dinner was (not were) included in the room price.
- Some of the people we met even asked us if California was (not were) an island.

Okay. So what do you do with this sentence?

- I wondered how I would feel about having a hook through my cheek if I was/were a fish.

One might see the word "wonder" and say it should be "was." On the other hand, I am not and never could be a fish, and therefore many would say to use "were." I tend to agree with the latter, especially since what you are really wondering is how you would feel. The rest of the sentence qualifies the circumstance which defines how you feel. This is about where I normally change the paragraph to remove the offending sentence. But what is the right usage?

7/17/2006 11:16:30 AM - Bill Allen again
Hmm.

In answer to my own question about commas and quotes hidden above, I found an article entitled "Editorial Ps and Qs (Punctuation Marks and Quotes, That Is)" by Chuck Toporek, which claims that para 6.8 (p. 242) of the Chicago Manual of Style, 15th Edition states that:

�� In computer related writing, in which a file name or other
character string enclosed in quotation marks might be rendered
inaccurate or ambiguous by the addition of punctuation within
the quotation marks, the alternative system may be used, or
the character string may be set in a different font, without
quotation marks (see 7.79).�

I have not pulled out my Chicago Manual of Style to see if there are other non-computer exceptions to the rule, but I am hoping...

7/30/2006 2:09:31 PM - Mary Brotherton
While I also have not pulled out my old college styles books, I tend to agree with what you found on the Internet. The quotation marks are identifiers: they identify exactly what a person said and they identify specific items to be input on websites.

If a website user needed instructions a writer may use the punctuation outside of the quotation marks, even in a series such as: You will need to input your "user name", "password", and "phone number".

I recently received my first rejection letter (yay! it's no longer on the slush pile). I was honored to also get my manuscript returned with editorial remarks, and one of the comments involved subjunctive case. If I was/If I were has long been confusing for me, until it was explained, and here you are echoing the generous editor who reviewed my manuscript. We are to use "were" for situations that are imagined, with no possibility of happening such as your "if I were a fish". We know you will never be a fish; however you can wonder about any number of things related to being a fish, so I believe your "I wonder how I would feel" is appropriate.

What I usually do, in situations like this is try other words, such as "I wondered how it would feel to have a hook through my cheek if I were a fish." But, then we open up another can of worms with passive voice.

8/6/2006 6:54:00 AM - Athena Sasso
Bill, I'm wondering how you became so attached to the idea of putting the punctuation outside the quotation marks? Were you educated or did you spent some of your formative years in England? I know that is a convention of usage there. However, I believe I have never seen a style manual here that allows punctuation outside the marks (with the exception of semicolons, I think). Just wondering.

8/10/2006 8:39:13 PM - Joyce H
In answer to your "was vs. were" dilemma: you wrote, "I wondered how I would feel about having a hook through my cheek if I was/were a fish."

In this case, you are wondering about how you would feel, not about whether you were a fish. Therefore the rule about wondering does not apply to the phrase at the end of the sentence. It will read: "I wondered how I would feel about having a hook through my cheek if I were a fish."

6/13/2010 6:26:36 PM - Toni Sims
Not being a fish trumps wondering about it any day of the week. I say it should be "were."